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-   -   To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE (https://www.trekearth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=485204)

Furachan 08-30-2007 05:26 AM

To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
As much as we all enjoy individual pictures and postings, some of us are keen to explore the "series" format where we would have the chance to tell a story in some depth. Now I'm just throwing out the idea, and do not mean this as a criticism, but could something like that be incorporated into the existing TE framework? Is that something you might consider?
One way to look at this is that under the current system, in spite of its many virtues, whenever we attempt some kind of a continuous narrative from day to day with "linked" pictures, it's very hard to achieve any kind of impact with the community because everything is geared to "today's flavor". Still in the context of learning about culture through photography, perhaps this more extended capability (or option) could have merit.
My 02 cents,
Francis

jinju 08-30-2007 06:09 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Francis,

I think the key is not to care about the reception and just post:) TE just isnt designed for series, in my opinion.

luisafonso 08-30-2007 08:10 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Just like Rafal said, TE is just not designed for series. TE is based on a daily posting system and, to me, to implement series functionalities that would mean that you would have to give the viewers access to the photos only when the series was completed. I mean, there's no point in keep posting and showing a photo a day to present a series. Nobody will look at it as a complete group and it would be nonsense to critique the single as a single and not as part of the collection. And then we would need a place to critique the collection as a whole...
Am not saying that a thing like this couldn't be implemented. Count me in the group that would love to see series being posted at this wonderful site. I am just saying that the posting method here is not suitable for a series presentation. Even if you are able link the photos in a way (easy to implement) it is the posting method that needs to be changed in order to series to fully make sense.
Stay safe. l.

oochappan 08-30-2007 01:27 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Through all the requests already seen here in the forums, one must conclude that the management of the site gives priority to quantity above quality, so your request maybe once more in vain, a dream ... you could handle this already with a post of six photos a day linked to each other to TL and the WS, only a few will follow of course, deviating from the main stream, reflections you will find on the main post on TE/TL.
You know that after 2 years member on TE, there is not that much left to learn for yourself but more to learn to others, maybe TE is focussing more the learning ambitions of the so many daily new here, a new challenge then. Reason of the system of TE not likely adepting to a few, other systems or sites gives you more this possibility ....

Furachan 08-30-2007 01:46 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
With all due respect Henk, I look at it differently, and I have a hunch that Adam might agree, you never know - why not expand Trekearth's excellent base to cater for the needs of an eager photojournalistic minority? The idea that Trekearth is but a set of photographic trainng wheels that one soons outgrows or something is too limited. Let's think in borad terms - here is literally room for many constituencies within TE, and there is enough flexibility built into the underlying grid to allow for more "sectors".
As to learning to others, if by that you mean sharing one's knowledge (or giving back in a sense) I am with you entirely.
Let's wait and see...

Darren 08-30-2007 01:49 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Henk, what you say is not only ridiculous, but insulting to Adam who has worked very hard to make this site what it is. If Adam cared only about quantity and not quality, the upload limit would still be three per day, as it was originally. BTW, if you think that after any amount of time that you have nothing left to learn on this site, you are a fool. Saying you have nothing left to learn is akin to saying that you no longer want to improve your photography. That might be fine for you, but I am sure Francis, nor most others here, feels they want to stagnate in such a way.

As for the original idea; I like it, but I really can't see how it could be incorporated into TE. At this point in TE's life cycle, I think that going to a post every two days would make sense as things move too quickly at one per day. That idea too is fraught (sp?) with issues though; I suspect it could cause many to become active critiquing only on days they upload. Unfortunately, if you want to do a series of shots, I can't see how Adam could twist things to allow for that in a single day without further watering down the site Themes and links within your notes I think are about the best options; of course those are the options we have now.

I believe that TE is what it is and that is a spot for daily uploads. If you want to work within that framework, I think there is no reason why you can't cover a project over the course of a week or two via daily uploads. I think for some that the issue is that some of the needed photos within that project will be poorly received. I guess that poster will just have to live with some not very well received photos knowing that they are posted in support of the entire set.

Anyways Francis, it is a good idea I think; just not one which blends into how TE works.

oochappan 08-30-2007 02:33 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
I do not like Darren that you turn a "there is not that much left" into "nothing" , when there is still a challenge to put the lath higher for yourself and sharing/helping others more with the time.

Francis, tell me what did change thourougly on TE that much the last two years, again a remark turned into an insult by Darren while it is simply a fact ... many regret that there is no movement on TE anymore if you read all the suggestions already made before that even some gave up to repeat again and again, there is nothing wrong in shaking a tree sometimes up.

ALSOM 08-30-2007 02:44 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Quoting Darren:
"I think there is no reason why you can't cover a project over the course of a week or two via daily uploads".
I think one can proceed this way: we can create lists, travelogues & themes.
I would rather think that the idea behind a serie is a one-shot upload of the serie and not 1 upload per day. It's true that it is difficult to appreciate a single photo out of its series. A photo that belongs to a serie should be viewed as an 'all'.

I would agree with Darren. With current TE capabilities:
1 - Extend the WS limit posting. Cons: current WS layout is not suitable for serie display
2 - Allow multiple uploads in themes or travelogues: but only one photo per day of the serie can be released or allow a single photo release to share the serie.

Of course like any tools, it only is valuable if it is properly used ...

Darren 08-30-2007 03:16 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
OK, Henk, I misquoted you slightly. I did say nothing when you said not much left. My thoughts don't change one tiny bit though. If you think there is "not much left" for you to learn, you are crippling yourself horribly I will guarantee you that the best shooters in the world still think there is tons to learn. THat is how they got to be the best and how they stay on top. Quibbling over a small bit of semantics doesn't change that at all.

I know the second paragraph was (sort of) directed at Francis, but I will answer anyways. Nothing that much has changed over the past two years at TE. Part of the reason that there is so little change is that the site is successful as it is. When you have something that is working, ie, lots of activity on a web site, you don't make wholesale changes. Now, what works for the masses will not work for all and that is why some (not many in terms of TE membership) regret that there are no changes.

You have made suggestions that have not been taken up by management. Does this mean that management hasn't considered them? Nope, I would bet heavily that they have been considered and Adam has decided they simply do not fit within his vision of TE. The fact that the same suggestion may have been many times does not suggest that the the suggestion isn't considered; it just says that Adam hasn't changed his mind since the last time that was brought up. If you are bringing something up many times and nothing is happening in response, you are doing nothing other than beating a dead horse. I do know for a fact that user suggestions do get considered, as a number that I have made have been implemented into TE. Others I have made haven't been implemented and that is cool too. If I wanted everything to fit into the Darren vision, I would start my own site.

You complain about me insulting you Henk, that is fine. I notice that you didn't make any move to retract the original insult you made towards Adam. Glass houses and all...

oochappan 08-30-2007 03:38 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
sorry Darren where is the insult in mentioning facts as we all know that increasing popularity always involves some kind of quality-loss, still new members come along with sometimes unbiased new views but the more members you got, the less they got noticed often ... quality-loss ... indeed something should be done to preserve quality at the the same tread of the growing popularity in favor of the credibility of TE, which has many cards they still could play.

For now we'll have to do with what we got, hoping for the better most probably for all ...
you see how pleasant it can be to be without any biased word-abuse, don't forget neither that TE exist thanks to the members so some credit giving to them would be very aplaudable, no ?

kinginexile 08-30-2007 04:26 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
the reason that there is so little change is that the site is successful as it is.
---------------------------
No one is denying that, Darren. But it is not insulting Adam to remark that on just about every discussion relating to new ideas and possible improvements, he never participates. Not once.

Maybe i do not read all the administration and TOS pages often, but being succesful does not have to mean staying aloof from the membership. We are all grateful towards Adam for this site, but how about acknowledging once in a while the fact that people see TE as a growing and living site, not just a success formula, and that they may not own it, but are truly the life of it.

Francis, about your question, I have to agree the site is not designed, and not used by people to highlight a special stance of photography. Even considering the coziness of having one's main photo friends here, why not making the jump these friends have made, using another site wher their ideas are developped in a context more welcoming of their special vision.

kinginexile 08-30-2007 04:30 PM

"using another site".....
 
I mean, not leaving TE, but adding another web feather to your photographic coiffe.

Furachan 08-30-2007 10:57 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Henk, there have been trends, movements, demographic and otherwise across TE this last two years, One of them is the gradual and often "perceived" isolation of the "photojournalistic" minority. What I am saying very clearly and loudly here, my friend, is that TE is ultimately big-hearted enough and broad ranging enough to accomodate those of us who are inclined toward PJ work in a way that makes us comfortabe. Adam is surely aware of all the trends and tensions that exert themselves across this vast landscape and I know he cares about quality even as he appreciates the advantages of scale. The listake, and it is one we too often make, is to attribute any kind of cynicism to e management of this huge site - that is simply not the case: this whole adventure was born out of an idealistic vision.

Darren 08-31-2007 12:09 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Hi Herve.

I know and agree that Adam doesn't participate in threads where suggestions are made that ultimately go unused, but my take on that has been that there is a very good reason why he doesn't participate in those threads. If Adam were to to come online and join in the discussion, that whole thread has the potential for becoming a big debate not only on the particular idea submitted, but also on many other frustrations a user has.

Adam chiming in to say he won't be implementing something can amount to throwing a whole bunch of fuel onto a small fire that would otherwise smoulder and die. I have seen this on other sites, where the moderators or webmasters do participate and the smallest thing becomes a major tempest in a hurry. I don't take this as aloofness, more as an action plan that works. Personally, whenever I have had email contact with Adam, the replies have been quick and friendly; I don't take him to be aloof as a person, but I think his choice has (rightly IMO) been to be aloof in how he participates here, especially as the site has grown.

Anyways, this is my take on things I can understand why others would think differently. Then again, I could be totally way off base.

oochappan 08-31-2007 12:50 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
indeed nor cynisme neither poetic ill/effusions but bare practical reality/facts is at its place hoping that your request will be heard once, a confirmation of the idealistic vision going beyond the past, thumbs up :) !

kinginexile 08-31-2007 01:06 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
We speak of Adam, but isn't the site now sold to another outfit? Certainly they have clarified a few points here on this forum, when needed, sorry I forget the name of the administrator, he has posted a few pix as well.

the site's approach is quite different if seen from the side of the ownership or the side of the members. Its success has made it a viable commercial enterprise, from what I gather, and it is a bit different for participants, who think only of their passion for photography, and do not always realize their propositions to improve the site or make it evolve, like Francis asks, may not be of much interest to its viability, and possibly veer it away from its success formula.

I am neither for or against, but why not say it, it may help some understand why TE sticks closely to what has been working very well until now.

prezntime 08-31-2007 02:55 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
I've got a couple of points to make...I hope.

First, series broken into daily installments is not all that unrealistic...take, for instance, a good quantity of fine literature. Many times a writer posted what became a novel over weekly or daily installments in periodicals. So if you have a talent for connective tissue (so to speak), you shouldn't have a problem connecting your output through your notes. Now, if people don't want to follow your posts because of laziness of procrastination...so be it; does it really matter. I know George (Polonaise) makes quite an effort in producing series linked by a unifying theme. That said, there is something lost by viewing on constantly refreshing screens...the computer will never be a book.

Also, there have been changes...we, Trekearths photographers, have moved away from what has made this site so interesting for so many people...constructive critisism. When I first started taking photos...not long ago, I wanted people to tell me what was good or bad with my photographs. I wanted feedback on the photos. Now, Trekearths guidelines have always said "learning about the world through photography"; but you have to be interested in the photographs to learn anything from them...that's where the constructive critisism comes in. Where are those that constantly push for a higher standard; They've become fewer and fewer as time passes.

I have many people that I consider friends on TE who take awesome photographs...but they can become lost in TE because of the "dumping ground" nature of the site (my words). Groups are a great concept and might work for TE. I do understand that some will consider this a insult to the "all one family" concept of TE, but at some point we have to recognize the size of this site and begin to create a better structure. If you think a photo fits, post it to that group...no moderators, if someone doesn't think it belongs they can tell you with a critique.

I want to participate in TE, but I feel more and more like the type of photography I'm doing doesn't fit into TE...I could be wrong, but it is just a feeling.

These are my recommendations for positive changes on TE.

I don't take critisism as an insult, nor truth telling of ones feelings. Henk has always been honest and forthcoming and I feel as though he's taken a little bit of a bad rap here.

Chris

sohrab 08-31-2007 04:20 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
a series in daily installments will definitely have an impact not only on how the viewer sees the series wholly but also on how the photographer goes about uploading his/her photographs. i feel that the critiques to the previous photographs will have an impact on subsequent uploads which might veer the series away from its original form

francis, suppose you have a 10 photograph story on the tokyo night life and if say you don't get a good response to one of them, i feel that there is a possibility that you might remove it and might also change some of the subsequent uploads which will mea that there was no point in your wanting to upload a series in the first place.

in order to safeguard the objectives of this site, and the photographer's original vision of his series and also in order to not externally affect the perspective of people who are the prospective viewers of your stories/series i suggest the following.

let there be some extra options while uploading.

1. an option of adding a photograph to a theme/series right at the time of the upload.

2. if you choose SERIES let there be an option "HIDE". you can perhaps allow the uploader to word his own phrases like "HIDE TILL SERIES IS COMPLETE."

you should have this as an option because it will also allow the people who want to upload in daily installments and get critiques for each subsequent photograph.

i believe that people like francis, rafal and perhaps shailendra and others who reaaaaaally want to show a series at one go will be patient enough to wait 10 days uploading photographs daily that are not visible to others will they chose to make them so. and if they are far too eager to show something other than a blank thumbnail with a message to people they can always upload separate singles in the days in between. or perhaps if you get too impatient with the process of waiting 10 days to show a 10 photograph series you can always edit the option of HIDE in all or some of the photographs and make them visible to others.

with their uploads their pages should also have blank thumbnails with the message that they've chosen while uploading like for example "HIDE TILL SERIES COMPLETE"

this i believe will also sustain the interest of the people who visit their pages and perhaps even generate new interest in what they will be about to see.

and more importantly i feel that it will satisfy the needs of all.

only the people who want to show a series as a whole will have to practise some patience. after all this will be an end to all their woes and bickering at one another ;)

AnimeshRay 08-31-2007 06:35 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Agree with Sohrab's scheme...if there is a will to allow series, then this might be the simplest way. It also has the nice feature that "patience" will be directly proportional to the size of the series. Always good to think hard before making a splash :-)

pgorod 08-31-2007 10:34 AM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Thinking in very practical terms, I would say this idea of series already exists, it is called "Themes", and it's really no bother to create a theme called "My Tokyo nights series" and add each relevant photo to the series.

The reason I think this doesn't feel like a good solution is just because of the lack of navigation options. If we could have a nice, obvious couple of links in each photo saying "Previous in Theme" and "Next in Theme", it would probably do the trick. With minimal work implementing.

Furachan 08-31-2007 12:18 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Sohrab, always a delight hearing from you, man!
Listen, it doesn't have to be THAT complicated - "hiding" shots and so on. Once again let me make my purpose for this thread nakedly clear to all: I am concerned about all the fine photogs who migrate unnecessarily to more soulless environments like pBase and so on when they could be right at home here. Those of us who are PJ-addled, who slobber all over our MAGNUM books, I say not only is there room for us in this vast community but we have a significant role to play in leavening the site, givingit an "edge". And you know that's true.
tThe problem is that we sometimes feel overwhelmed by predominant trends, postacrds, what you will which, though perfectly legitimate, sometimes overshadow what we're trying to achieve. Those of us a bit more heavily on the PHOTOGRAPHY side of the ledger, ya know what I mean?
I believe that this plea will not fall on deaf ears, let's give it a little time.

kinginexile 08-31-2007 04:23 PM

Re: To Adam: a suggestion concerning "series" on TE
 
Francis, a few points.

A new format added to the site, ie. series, will most likely be TE-ed in no time. I mean for one series of Francis and Jinju on the street of Tokyo or Seoul,, you will have 15 shots of xxx's last trip to Angkor wat, xxx's last 12 shots coming from Italy, etc... I hope at least, if it happens (Cordon Rouge OK, Francis?), it will not be prisoner of the smyley tyranny and addiction. But then, traffic will be slow. Also a series, or a docu, is like an exhibit, it deserves a setting where it will fit. For me, it's about like having 2 pages of Winogrand's shots in TRAVEL AND LEISURE magazine, or exhibiting him at WALMART. Why put all in one when it will dilute the effort of the photographer.

I also think that crowded websites has their limits, and so does TE (c' est plutot "tout le monde il est beau, tout le monde il est gentil" que soulful, avec quelques villains petits canards!). I think that the challenges that some members have created for themselves, have a lot to do with not staying parked on TE, not ceding to the same routine, but looking beyond.

I'd say that the last experience Rafal had, which he posted in the P. section of the forum, without driving him away from TE, is setting him on a course where sharing his work only on TE or other memebership websites is not really telling him that's where it stops.

What we need is to challenge ouselves, not constrain our daily outputs in the same routine way.

I am sure you will find I did not stick to the thread topic :-)))


if the pleas did not fall on deaf ears, it would be nice to hear about it. Now that would be soulful....


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