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  #21  
Old 01-28-2007, 02:01 PM
bstreeck bstreeck is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

No point in writing a long post: you've spoken my thoughts exactly!

To be honest, your point with having to select a geographic location is probably the crux: I don't understand why people feel that a picture of their hand can even be put into such a category. I have no clue how to make people *think* before they *post*.

Thanks for this concise description of the problem, though doubting it will change anything.
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  #22  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:19 AM
AdrianW AdrianW is offline
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Default TE vs TL, a few simple things

The reason Olli's bubble shot is here is that TL only arrived that month, and to be honest I not sure whether it was even public at that point. The first photos were uploaded the day before - and I suspect it was still in beta then, but I can't remember. I thought I registered on the first day, and my registration date there is 1st April, which suggests it probably wasn't public until then.

The big difference is that TL allows the full range of post-processing/Photoshop activities, and also a wider range of photo types. Note TE ToS #3 - now look at the TL ToS, see how that one's missing? Also look at TE ToS #5-#8
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  #23  
Old 01-29-2007, 10:08 AM
lennarts lennarts is offline
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Default Re: TE vs TL, a few simple things

Okay, that's a good explaination. In order not to be misunderstood, let mu just emphasize on more time that the issue I wanted to raise is really not about any particular user or particular photo. I arrived in TE and TL at the end of that year and then both sistersites were already operational - so excuse me for not knowing all the developments that had taken place before me. The TOS points you cited are exactly the ones I proceeded from when I joined TE and TL. And I developed my understanding of "how things should be" in either of the sites exaclty from these guidelines you cited. You probably agree that for me and other users like me, who arrived here later and do not know all the history, it is possible to feel that the rules and reality do not fully match.
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  #24  
Old 01-29-2007, 10:57 AM
lennarts lennarts is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

Thank you Lara for sharing your thoughts.
I can assure you that I had not looked into your profile before, so it was not me who reposted your flower more suitable to TL than for TE. But I'm glad to hear it, not because I'm malicious or not knowing what flower we are talking about ina first place, but because it tells me I'm not the only one who feels the same way I do about TOS :)

I'm sad to hear about your experiences in TL. Over the last days when i have had more free time and I've spend some time reading forum messages I have discovered that many people feel about TL the same way you do. Some even have reported racial and gender-related abuse there. This is not normal. However, I think this should not be a reason to give up on TL. TrekLens TOS p.8 states clearly that "Profanity, insults, and rude comments are not permitted on TrekLens". It should be reported.
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  #25  
Old 01-29-2007, 11:52 AM
lennarts lennarts is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

I don't think the photos in TL are overall as bad as you describe. Sure there are some low quality snapshots of pets and friends, but there are also great closeup portraits, experimantal photos, good examples of digital manipulation, etc. I just looked at the first 10 pages of TL gallery, it's not that bad - I would say the majority of photos are goot TL material.
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  #26  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:50 PM
lennarts lennarts is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

Maybe the identity crisis topic I raised in the first message of this forum thread applies first and foremost to TrekLens. "About TrekLens" begins with: "The underlying theme of TrekLens is learning more about the world through photography". At the same time, as Richard pointed out earlier in this forum, the banner headline of TL reads: "Learning about photography through our world". So which is it? There certainly is a difference in emphasis.

TrekLens today is in a many ways a copy of TE. Apart from a different colour scheme, a few differences in TOS and differences in communities, they are technically, in the way the site functions (uploading, critiques, workshops, etc.) very similar. Perhaps too similar. If the aims are different, perhaps also the functionality should reflect it more than it does today. For example: if all artsy, experimental, digitally manipulated stuff is welcome in TL and the "world" that we should learn more about can be in context of TL understood more widely than different countries, cultures, customs, etc., then the regional grouping of photographs does not necessarily make much sense in TL. I'm not saying it should not be there, but perhaps it isn't the most important classification. If I'm uploading a photo of a toothbrush is it really important if it was shot in Tallinn or New York? Also, considering the wide range of images acceptable to TL, the People / Places selection when auploading a photo to TL is ridiculous. For example I have a macro shot of Burmese cigarettes and a photograph of a cat in my TL gallery - not really places nor people.

Another problem with TL's split personality is that on one hand it can be understood as a place for artistic aspitations, a place where through experimantation, friendly critiques and worshops learn more about photography and photographic techniques. At the same time the site is degraded into status of TrekEarth's trashbin. So if a photo does not qualify to be in TE, you can still put it in TL.
It is really dishonoring. Why would one want to put up his photographic exploration, something s/he has put a thought and effort into, in a gallery next to somebody's random low quality snapshot of a dear pet or toddler?

The TE guidelines section begins with: "The underlying theme of TrekEarth is learning more about the world through photography. Please keep this goal in mind when you post photos. If you canít articulate how the photo helps others learn about the world, then it probably doesnít belong on TrekEarth . There are a number of other useful websites where you can post photos that do not meet the goals of TrekEarth". This statement is missing in TL guidelines. I believe some similar statement should be there.

There is a difference between of a photo of pet and a photo of a pet. Shots of pets, family and friends can involve very little or very much intended photographic techniques. There are examples of both in TL.

If TL would truly be about learning more about photography (or "world" in a wider sense) then users should be able to express their discontent if any particular photo does not attempt to reach that goal.

In TE, when we find a photo that we think does not belong there, we can click "report problem" and suggest it to be moved to TL (unless it is nudity, identical photo already existing in a gallery or something very offensive which is liable for immediate deletion). What should be the corresponding action in TL? Write a note? Perhaps it is not enough to keep TL functional.
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  #27  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:32 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

"Another problem with TL's split personality is that on one hand it can be understood as a place for artistic aspirations, a place where through experimantation, friendly critiques and worshops learn more about photography and photographic techniques. At the same time the site is degraded into status of TrekEarth's trashbin. So if a photo does not qualify to be in TE, you can still put it in TL.
It is really dishonoring. Why would one want to put up his photographic exploration, something s/he has put a thought and effort into, in a gallery next to somebody's random low quality snapshot of a dear pet or toddler?"

If TL is being used as a trashbin for images of poor quality that is obviously undesirable. Images can be considered unsuitable for TE for many reasons and it doesn't automatically follow that the quality of the image has anything to do with it.
I think the common theme running through many of the responses is that the TOS are somewhat vague and open to too much individual interpretation. There is often the question of why one image is acceptable but another very similar image is not. The explanation can on many occasions be a single word "Notes". For example a closeup of a flower, any flower, without notes really tells us very little. The same image explaining that the flower grows only in certain parts of a country can tell us a lot.
What does irritate me is people who say that there shouldn't be rules about what can be posted on these sites. I say to them that if they don't like the rules don't use the site. Everybody is free to create their own site with their own rules. If they continue to post images that violate the TOS of the site they must expect the images to be reported and removed.

"In TE, when we find a photo that we think does not belong there, we can click "report problem" and suggest it to be moved to TL"

I don't think there is any facility for the admins to move images between sites, but I may be wrong on that.
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  #28  
Old 01-29-2007, 03:23 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Default Perfect example. Closeup of flower fits the TOS.

I hope the originator doesn't mind me using this, but I think it explains the difference between what fits the TOS and what doesn't perfectly.

http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/North_America/United_States/photo566110.htm

The image on its own clearly violates the TOS as it is a closeup of a garden flower. Add the notes and it fits the TOS perfectly.
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  #29  
Old 01-29-2007, 06:11 PM
bstreeck bstreeck is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

To post on this again, as I've recently had a unpleasent run-in with someone, just because I pointed out that the one newest picture of his many good ones, didn't fit here... It's sad.

I'm assuming that people are not too stupid or too hard headed to follow the rules, I think most of them just like a certain picture they took and want to share it. They end up posting it here, a place where they have posted a lot of pictures before, and in the process don't reflect that this might be the wrong place.

So maybe, it may make sense, to have them actively think about the relevant items of the TOS when they post. Have them check the following checkboxes after selecting the file and country.

o This is not a picture of family, friends, or pets.
o This is not a studio or studio-like photograph.
o This picture is not of a common object or plant/flower (unless if accompanied by an unusually concise explanatory note).
o The picture has not been digitally manipulated (except for what little is allowed by the TOS).

Only after checking these four boxes (the exact wording is just a suggestion derived from the TOS) can the picture be uploaded. This way, nobody has the excuse of having forgotten the TOS. And anyone who posts a picture of a rose, without a note about it being a state flower, can only be either malicious or just that stupid.

Just an idea...
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  #30  
Old 01-29-2007, 06:33 PM
Keitht Keitht is offline
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Default Re: identity crisis?

Sounds like a very clever idea to me. I guess it would be comparatively easy to implement as radio buttons are widely used when signing up for the site.
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