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-   -   I quit... (https://www.trekearth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=844988)

jasmis 12-30-2010 08:32 AM

I quit...
 
Yesterday I uploaded a photo as a tribute to our departed friend - Marek Nowak - aka Gustaw just in second anniversary of his death. Some of you wrote some warm words. But suddenly the photo dissappered. I've got an e-mail from TE:

Your photo titled, "Tribute to Gustaw" (photo1265643.htm) seems to
violate the TrekEarth terms of service and therefore has been inactivated.

I cannot stand such soullessness and thoughtlessness any more. I've been here for over 6 years. It is enough, I presume, so I quit now.

TE members are wonderful, I spend here fine time, but now I cannot stay here any longer...


Happy New Year!

emka 12-30-2010 01:38 PM

It is my note on the TE group in Facebook and also a question to vivianne who seems the only persons amongs mods who cares:

"Again, the decision of mods is not to understand. Yesterday passed two years of the death of our friend Marek aka Gustaw. Two Trekkers posted the photos as a tribute to him, but the photos were removed as violation of the TOS. I saw the photo of jasmis and there was nothing in it against TOS. You can see it on jasmis site in FB. The same thing again and again. The result is that jasmis, after 6 years of addiction, left the site. Is it the real goal of admin to get rid of old members?
"

In this way I've got an aswer, thank you.
Viviane napisał(a): „I understand how someone can feel about such a lost, but what I don't understand, Emka, is why people don't use their imagination better to dedicate tributes to their friends. I's so very easy to take a picture completely suiting the ToS and adding a sensitive note under it... If Jasmis did photograph a candle in a church or anything else which could be considered as an important photographic adding to TE and added that info on his note then it would have been perfectly acceptable, why choosing something we can't see what it's about and w/o any note about the photo itself? On that particular picture I just saw one lit candle and a diffuse dark silhouette in the background. No idea what I was seeing in fact... I think if you want to make a tribute to a photographer you at least can make an effort.”

I do not understand the answer. I cite TOS:

Certain types of photos are prohibited on TrekEarth and will be removed:
Nude photographs unless the nudity is intrinsically related to an event such as a regional festival, daily living, or the like.
Photographs of family, friends, or pets (not only one's own).
Self-portraits, photos of your own reflection or own shadow.
Studio-like, set-up or posed photos.
Closeups of any flowers of plants, water droplets, toothbrushes etc. are not allowed.

I haven't seen anything of it on the photo. The TOS should be respected of both sides. The note was very sensitive, there were many comments under it. Why do you think it was no effort? If jasmis wrote," I made this photo in the church so and so" - would it be there still? The photo spoke perfectly for itself. If people had any dou bts if there decision of leaving the side was right, no they have no such doubts.

Regards

emka

jasmis 12-30-2010 03:14 PM

Daj sobie spokój Małgosiu,
 
Nawet Viviane. która uchodzi za najbardziej rozumnego admina, pisze do Ciebie jakieś kretyńskie herezje. Szkoda gadać, szkoda pisać. Szkoda dawać zdjęcia.
Pozdrawiam.

ninaL 12-30-2010 03:39 PM

I quit, too
 
Some years ago, TE was a great website.
Today, it became NOTHING.
The politic of administration is the shame.
The best and more creative members leaved this site.
Now, it is a flood of bad, hirsh photos, that do not envy to travel around the world.
Human photography is finished.
In the case of Jan, I can't understand decisions of moderators.
They leaved : Sarolta, Polonaise, Bantonbuju, Jinju, Traczewska, BatoussaĎ, and at least twenty other good photographers.
Marek Nowak was between us. He is died. Jan would to present a tribute to his missing presence (there was a very good man). The photo of Jan was delated.
I can't understand !

johannes68 12-30-2010 06:32 PM

Again
 
Dear Jan,

I´m very sorry to hear this. Unfortunately it´s the same old story, repeated again and again and again on this site - hurting peoples feelings, and mostly hurting the ones who care (or did care) most.

What more should I say. I´m sorry for your decision, but I understand it well, very well.

Take care, dear friend, and hope to see you soon in another (better, more worthy) forum than TE.

Johannes

Porteplume 12-30-2010 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162057)
I do not understand the answer. I cite TOS:

Certain types of photos are prohibited on TrekEarth and will be removed:
Nude photographs unless the nudity is intrinsically related to an event such as a regional festival, daily living, or the like.
Photographs of family, friends, or pets (not only one's own).
Self-portraits, photos of your own reflection or own shadow.
Studio-like, set-up or posed photos.
Closeups of any flowers of plants, water droplets, toothbrushes etc. are not allowed.

I haven't seen anything of it on the photo. The TOS should be respected of both sides. The note was very sensitive, there were many comments under it. Why do you think it was no effort? If jasmis wrote," I made this photo in the church so and so" - would it be there still? The photo spoke perfectly for itself. If people had any dou bts if there decision of leaving the side was right, no they have no such doubts.

Regards

emka

I just saw a very close shot of a candle... Please explain what I'm missing.

rlrad 12-30-2010 07:28 PM

Good Photographers and Friends
 
You should all come to AM****3 - the same sort of community exists there, but there is a much more lenient TOS.

Several folks have gone there from here - I post very little here now, too much turmoil and I feel more free to create at that site.

E-mail me directly through the system for more information...

Have a great New Year!

Reed

emka 12-30-2010 10:40 PM

"I just saw a very close shot of a candle... "

You can't be serious... So every portrait of the face will be close up in the same way, also every door knob or other detail. In fact, it was not close up because the broader scene was included, although dark.

In film, television, still photography and the comic strip medium a close-up tightly frames a person or an object. Close-ups are one of the standard shots used regularly with medium shots and long shots. Close-ups display the most detail, but they do not include the broader scene. Moving in to a close-up or away from a close-up is a common type of zooming (after Wikipedia).

Porteplume 12-30-2010 11:03 PM

I'm very serious, believe me. I always am, every time I have to examine a photo or a request.
On this photo the main subject is a close-up of a very ordinary candle. The background says nothing about the place it has been taken, just a dark shadow of something or someone...
And yes, if we were able to clearly see something interesting in the background and if Jan has described the place where it was taken then it had had all the rights to be on TE.

It's my last posting on this subject. I have said why I think this photo had to be inactivated. Of course you may contact me any time.

mkamionka 12-31-2010 10:51 AM

there are always two sides
 
I admire Porteplume for her courage.

It is definitely sad that some senior TE photographers, like JY, Cretense and others left the site. It is obvious that the quality of TE uploads dropped because of this fact. I considered leaving as well.

On the other hand the rules are simple and I have the impression that quite often the senior members feel like the rules do not apply to them.
Every forum has a right to shape its profile according to its own rights.
If a forum declares that it is about "learning about the world" and people do not recognize it but keep violating this rule, they have to be prepared for the consequences. Moreover, TL was created, a forum which is supposed to be not for learning about the world but for more experimental photos. Yet people are often too lazy to transfer or they are afraid their audience will not transfer with them.

Low quality uploads happen to senior members as well. You may call them artistic but then they fit TL more than TE.
I respect TE moderators for being strict in that matter and sometimes I believe they are not strict enough.

I like in this forum the social aspect, I met many interesting people here and I learned a lot about the world and photography.
But I also like its organization. I like the fact that when I click a location I don't see flowers or candles, regardless at how wonderful or sensitive occasions they were uploaded.
I am really sad that so many have left, many good friends transferred to another forums which have a higher quality of photos, other chose sites with a greater flexibility of themes, other made finally their own web sites. There is nothing wrong or dramatic about it. TE is still a very unique place. On the place of old members, new members will come, some beginners other with great skills. Some friendships will be gone but other will develop.

Keitht 12-31-2010 12:14 PM

Thank you Mariusz. You have made the points that we as other members and moderators have been trying to get across for a long time. We are not saying, and never have said, that there is no place for images which do not fit the fairly tight parameters on TE. The very reason TrekLens and TrekNature were created was precisely so that there are other locations where some very fine images can be posted without breaking the rules.
Speaking purely as a member (forget the mod bit) I can see very few reasons for posting images on TE which don't fit the TOS.

1. Particularly for new members, the TOS are not obvious and take considerable effort to find and read. Even when you access the link there are still a number of screens to view. That doesn't encourage reading of those links. As an analogy, how many of us read the instruction manual for a camera completely before we use it, particularly if it's on a CD which takes extra effort? Not many I suggest. :o
2. Sometimes a member will post an image which they genuinely believe does fit the TOS, but the mods disagree.
3. Occasionally a member will simply forget about the TOS because they have an image they like and want to share.
4. Regrettably there are also a comparatively small number of members who seem to believe the rules apply only to other people and they should be allowed to post what they want, where they want.

Some people have argued that they don't post on TrekLens because there is very little activity there. Maybe there is so little activity there because they are posting the images on TE instead despite the fact that they know of TL!

Let me again stress that these have been my views ever since TL & TN were created. Views held long before I was asked to become a mod on the site.

emka 12-31-2010 02:50 PM

I was also wandering why people do not move to TL or TN but rather quit the site and move somewhere else. I see some reasons of it, and in no way it is lazyness. The people who leave TE are usually very active in many places.
I have all three accounts but do not use TN nor TL. Why? The rules on TN are very strict, even more than on TE. You must know the names of the plants or animals, it is rather for those people who specialize in some areas, often professionally. There are many members who are good in butterflies or birds or bugs and are very happy there. Often they are active on both sites. As to TL, there it can be everything, for instant the portraits of lovely daughter everyday, or 30 tulips during a month. In many cases the photos are like on TE, sometimes the same. But the other thing is the social aspect of TE. It makes me to be rather here than on Photofolia, Aminus3, Fotopedia or ,Italia in Foto (I am in all these sites, on Fotopedia quite successfully). I have friends HERE, I met many of them personally - up to now more than 60 persons from 13 countries. It is another way of learning the world through photography - we make photos in the same place, but then they are different as everyone sees the different things. The TE meetings are something very special. The people like to meet each other not only on computer screen but also in reality. For me it is not the same whom I show my photos and who will critic them. Very often I make photos to show them here for specific persons. And in this aspect TE was unique. This is probably the reason that the loss of any member is so painful.
Senior members like me do not like to be treated as kids. I see a lot of times that ToS rules are violated and it happens nothing. It makes anger - once something is permitted, other time not. I know many people who left because of that.
The Russians say: Staryj drug luchshe novykh dvukh (the old firend is better than two new ones) , I can have new friends but I do not like to loose the old ones.

fanni 12-31-2010 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162216)
The Russians say: Staryj drug luchshe novykh dvukh (the old firend is better than two new ones)

Oh YEAH! :D I confirm this!

May I also add a little quotation here: "Well, nobody's prefect!" ;)

(most probably many of you remember this last line in the "Some Like It Hot" movie)

Keitht 12-31-2010 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162216)
I was also wandering why people do not move to TL or TN but rather quit the site and move somewhere else. I see some reasons of it, and in no way it is lazyness. The people who leave TE are usually very active in many places.
But the other thing is the social aspect of TE. ..... I have friends HERE, I met many of them personally - up to now more than 60 persons from 13 countries. .......
Senior members like me do not like to be treated as kids. I see a lot of times that ToS rules are violated and it happens nothing. It makes anger - once something is permitted, other time not. I know many people who left because of that.

I understand what you are saying about the social aspect, but if there was more activity on TL then the social aspect would grow. It's a chicken and egg situation - which comes first!
Yes images are missed by the moderators, that's why there is the option 'Report Problem' under every image when you open it. If you believe the rules are being violated please tell us. We can then make a decision on its suitability and you will be helping to provide the consistency of treatment which we all want to see.

emka 12-31-2010 03:56 PM

Hi, Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task. I can't help but TL is boring.

mkamionka 12-31-2010 04:47 PM

I feel well on TE and find TL not interesting because people upload there what they call "art", and some (also senior) members try to do that here as well, hence our discussion. They want to share their photos and/or feelings never mind the TE profile. I like TE exactly for its distinct profile, it does not disturb the social life at all.

I take plenty of photos which I like and which I don't post here because I think they do not suite this forum. That's it.

I think moderators could pick even more unsuitable photos but because there are so many uploads I realize they just remove most obvious cases.
I would tend to be even more selective, for example if a photo has not a single sharp object the quality is "too artistic" to learn anything from it, etc.
But because I don't have time to contribute to this process by myself I don't criticize their work. Somebody has to make this dirty job. ;)

Keitht 12-31-2010 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162225)
Hi, Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task. I can't help but TL is boring.

Your choice :D but therein lies the problem. We (the mods) have acknowledged the fact that we can't view every image and therefore it is inevitable that some images will slip through the net. I don't have a problem with members not being comfortable about reporting images, but it's a bit much if those same members then complain about inconsistency. :(
A bit like not voting in an election and then complaining that the wrong people were elected:)

emka 12-31-2010 07:29 PM

And what is the result of these actions?
I checked the number of photos posted in November in four years. In 2007 it was 19951 photos, in 2008 - 16362, in 2009 - 14927, 2010 - 7269 and in December this year - at the moment is 6604. What will be the number in 2011? And these are only numbers, not the quality of the photos. Do you remember the photos of Carper, Floydian, ,Kath Featherstone, Peter Bohringer or Fulvio?
Is it the goal you want to achieve? Will be the new members interested in such a site? Who will be the winner?
So, be more strict with interepretations of TOS!!

macondo 01-01-2011 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162252)
And what is the result of these actions?
I checked the number of photos posted in November in four years. In 2007 it was 19951 photos, in 2008 - 16362, in 2009 - 14927, 2010 - 7269 and in December this year - at the moment is 6604. What will be the number in 2011? And these are only numbers, not the quality of the photos. Do you remember the photos of Carper, Floydian, ,Kath Featherstone, Peter Bohringer or Fulvio?
Is it the goal you want to achieve? Will be the new members interested in such a site? Who will be the winner?
So, be more strict with interepretations of TOS!!

Hi Malgorzata!

Those statistics are interesting, and so are the statistics of membership. Using the statistics page, it appears that total membership is now about 100,000. I think this is actually more than the membership in 1997, so, if you are right about the postings then we have more members, but they are uploading less frequently. There may be numerous reasons for this but your vaguely expressed point ('What is the result of these actions') seems to be that there is only one reason. I'm assuming that you mean it's the fault of 'these actions' of the moderators - 'Is that the goal you want to achieve?' you ask, and it sounds to me like that question is addressed to the moderators. It's a rhetorical question, isn't it, but the point you are making is too ridiculous to answer. Some members seem to have this preposterous idea, and each time a member comes to the forum to complain about a photo being removed, those members are quick to blame the moderators for the departure of so-and-so and so-and-so, and a list of some inactive or departed members is thrown around eg. 'Carper, Floydian, ,Kath Featherstone, Peter Bohringer or Fulvio'. I say this simple theory is unbelievable and false.

[By the way, Floydian is on Photofolia (started by Peter Boehringer) now - 32 photos uploaded in 12 months, also Carper - no photos in 8 months, Fulvio - 23 photos in 10 months, none since September, Feather - 53 in 11 months. On that site, 264 members upload between 10 and 15 shots per day - moderators must be terrible. ;) But, seriously, I would love to see them back on TE, and many others who I remember so well and wonder where they are. I think we all lament their absence.]

The truth is that members develop many motives for leaving or becoming inactive. I know many left or stopped uploading when the site was bought and changes were made to it. I know some members have gone on to establish their own websites or blogs. Mariusz mentions some of the reasons in his contribution to this thread. If the moderators' painstaking efforts to implement the TOS in a fair and reasonable manner (without allowing TE to become a free-for-all) are what is driving away so many members, then it is clear that TE, as defined by the TOS, is no longer suitable for them. Sad, but true. I think it is fair enough to criticise the TOS and suggest changes or improvements, in fact it is really necessary, but how about a bit of respect for the moderators? The habit of attacking the moderators before they have even had a chance to reconsider a photo's removal which has been challenged by the member, can only undermine TE, not improve it.

Malgorzata, you say
Quote:

Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task.
It sounds like you are happy that it is somebody else's task. Yes, speaking as one of those 'somebodies', cases are often quite obvious (although the anger of some members who upload those 'obvious' cases would surprise you!). But it's the difficult ones, the borderline cases, the sensitive issues, that we still have to make a decision on. Sometimes we find we have made a mistake. We are prepared to reconsider and re-activate photos, and this is done. Do you think we feel comfortable doing that when 'threats' are made to quit or to stop uploading photos in protest, and when we are blamed for the departure at some time or other of so-and-so?

Earlier, you said members would leave because the moderators were inconsistent. That is a problem, but with only a few of us, we cannot possibly find every photo outside the TOS. We are very, very careful to try to be consistent. But every time we are 'consistent' we might be accused of being 'inflexible', so we can't win!

I don't know if members will be pleased that you said...
Quote:

So, be more strict with interepretations of TOS!!
Perhaps you were being sarcastic - just giving advice on how best to achieve the moderators' aims of destroying TE! :rolleyes:

Happy New Year,
Andrew

phwall 01-01-2011 07:39 AM

Time to get over yourselves
 
Hi Andrew,
It saddens me to see you defending yourself and the rest of the moderating team in a Forum like this. What I see as an onerous and thankless task, a scant few others seem to see moderating the site as your personal platform for the persecution of all and sundry for daring to suggest you have a better understanding of the TOS than they do, well, let them eat cake.

Keep up the good work, you and the rest of the team are doing a great job. I know you have the confidence of the great majority of members.

All the best for 2011.

Best Wishes
Peter

emka 01-01-2011 10:55 AM

First, Happy New Year!! Let's hope the problems will be somehow solved!

Wow, how fortunate I am. Three mods are discussing with me, and who I am? But I appreciate it very much. Thanks. And Andrew understood what I meant perfectly. I was sarcastic and ironic. But I care (still) for this site, I don't want to be aggresive.
I am thinking about some arguments for my POV but New Year's morning is a bit hard for this. So at the moment some numbers - I am physicist, so I like numbers and am looking for the logical explanation of observed facts.
New members - maybe here is the point. Mods (or IB) POV - there are a lot of new members, no reason to worry. My POV - in December came 768 new registered members (25 pages times 30 plus 18). All of them in one month posted 373 photos and 422 critics. Most of them have no photos, no critics. Why do they register ? I noticed only a few persons that could be active membersin future but I haven't see their photos, just they posted something and commented.

About senior members - later.

johannes68 01-01-2011 01:07 PM

Tos
 
Dear All,

I think we´re losing a bit track of the original problem that lead to this discussion and to Jan´s regretable decision to leave TE.

Let´s go back to where it all started from: Jan complained that he had posted a photo im memory of the aniversary of the death of a Polish TE member, who I think has been a friend of some other Polish TE members. And this photo has been deleted because it seems to have violated the TOS.

I have not seen this photo, so I can´t say whether it did or did not violate the TOS. The problem is that in a case like that this shouldn´t matter. It was thought as a moment of silence and memory for the dead TE-member. TOS or not TOS, a photo like this must not be deleted. Deleting it reveals a lack of respect, and for me a lack of education and culture. Deleting it leaves the ugly taste that the TOS are more important than the memories of a dead. It´s as simple - and as sad - as that.

Johannes

emka 01-01-2011 02:47 PM

I wrote about general problems in TE because I didn't want to be pathetic and Porteplume close the discussion. But many people read this tread so I will explain the situation and why I am personally so emotionally involved in it. Marek Nowak aka Gustaw was an active TE-member. He posted more than 700 hundreds photos, more than 14 thousands critics. His last post was on 19th December 2008 and last critic with workshop for the new young member was on 20th Dec. He was also a favorite of 45 members. His death one week later, just before New Year was a hard blow to all those who knew him. he was only 43 years old. Jan jasmis knew him from TE and they became friends also in real world. Jan was also seriously ill, almost on the other side, but was more lucky. In his illness had a great support from other TE friends. Who knows, maybe they saved his life. Now after two years we still remember Marek. In Polish culture we pay respect for those who are no more with us. The candle light is just a symbol of it. In All Saints day you see the sea of lights, also in the day of anniversary or name day of the person the family and friends pay respect lighting a candle. After the tragedy in Poland in April the people went many hours from other cities and from ,abroad just to light a candle near Presidential Palace. So, Jan did the same thing. After two years of the death of our friend he just lit the candle - in the form of photo. With a clear message understandable for many people, but not by mod. To show us that he still remembers. No points please. Any candle is a symbol, ordinary candle or not. All parts of this photo had symbolic meaning. And it teaches about our culture, our nation as well as the view of the castle or the Tatra mountains. It violated no feelings, no rules. If it happened to me I would do the same thing -I would leave TE.

mkamionka 01-01-2011 03:19 PM

Hmm.
I am not a moderator but I do see moderators' point.
Has anybody seen the photo by jasmis?
I did see it on Facebook recently.
Please have a look at it, and may be you will understand the reasons for removing it? You don't have to think long to catch their reasoning. There is no controversy at all. The only reason to keep the picture is that the photographer is a senior member and that the intention was a sensitive issue. Is it enough?

As it so happens I deeply regret that so many great friends left the forum and directly or not the moderators are "responsible" for that. But before judging I would like to know by myself what were the real reasons. Some of the stories are hard to follow, I just know that somebody was banned and in protest somebody else left. In case of jasmis the case is simple. We cannot just say that moderators are arrogant and they do not respect members. This is not fair.

We in Poland have the tendency to accuse easily "them" meaning an evil force which is out there to kill our fun. At the same time we refrain from taking any responsibility.
Of course the web page is meant for fun. But every fun has to have some boundaries. Otherwise it becomes a mess. For example, once I considered leaving the forum because there are here too many people who are posting all kind of crap. And I know people who left for that exact reason. So I am glad moderators do something about it now.

The number of uploads really does not mean anything as the quality of uploads. You cannot use both arguments at the same time as they are contradictory.

kajenn 01-01-2011 09:28 PM

Would've made it right..?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162311)
In Polish culture we pay respect for those who are no more with us. The candle light is just a symbol of it. In All Saints day you see the sea of lights, also in the day of anniversary or name day of the person the family and friends pay respect lighting a candle. After the tragedy in Poland in April the people went many hours from other cities and from ,abroad just to light a candle near Presidential Palace.

It's too bad that these words didn't accompany the photo, as that would've taught us (at least me) something about Polish traditions. And together with an impressive and solemn photo, this would've meant a respect to Gustaw as well as being in accordance with the aim of TrekEarth.

Juzo 01-02-2011 02:58 AM

Jan's image
 
Hi all and happy new year,
I saw Jan's photo, and I commented on it. I think it was a beautiful and sensitive moment, and I felt for Jan, and the other members, who knew Marek Nowak.
I think the image should be restored, as for me, the TOS are less important than the tribute. Many members took time to comment and view this image, and for me, it led me to Marek Nowak's fantastic gallery, where I learnt alot.
There are rules I understand, I work in legislation, but even in government, there are exceptions, and to me, simply removing an image beacuase it is a simply a candle is not right. The context is most important here, this image led members, such as myself who did not know Marek Nowak, to his gallery, this , as well as the tribute , played an important role in the validity of this site.
I always try to stick to the rules, and I can understand sometimes I may bend them to post here, but this case...well, in my opinion, what is more important? - The rules of TOS and "learning about the world" or the death of a man who gave so much time and effort to this site.
I ask the image be restored, simply out of respect for a human life, the feelings of those who knew him , and for the benfit of new members to be led to these great galleries.
This is to respect not only Marek, but all those members who gave vast amounts of their time and efforts here, who are assets to TE, who deserve, in a time like this, to be seen above some 'rules'.
Best wishes to all,
Justin

npecanhuk 01-02-2011 09:19 AM

No better said!
 
Mariusz could not have better said what I think it's right!
I'm amazed by how more organized people (at least that's what I think and suppose) are so hurt by rules!
All for now,
Cheers and happy 2011!
:)

emka 01-02-2011 09:53 AM

I said:
Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task.

But I will be: delete the photo http://beta.trekearth.com/viewphotos.php?l=5&p=1196227
it is obviously against ToS (pets, selfportrait, close-up).


(I didn't meant it, I just liked the scene but rules should be obeyed!)

Keitht 01-02-2011 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emka (Post 1162391)
I said:
Oh no, I will not be a nark, the cases are often quite obvious (flowers, close ups, family members) but it is not my task.

But I will be: delete the photo http://beta.trekearth.com/viewphotos.php?l=5&p=1196227
it is obviously against ToS (pets, selfportrait, close-up).


(I didn't meant it, I just liked the scene but rules should be obeyed!)

Just because it has a pet in the image doesn't automatically mean it breaks the TOS. This one was actually discussed by the mods when it was posted and it was decided it should stay. The cat, although being an important element of the image, is only one part of the composition. Inclusion of the surroundings etc made it at worst borderline, and in such cases we will generally decide in favour of leaving it in the gallery. It's also a bit late to remove as it has been on the site for several months. Thank you for bringing it to our attention all the same.:)

BennyV 01-02-2011 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juzo (Post 1162356)
Hi all and happy new year,
I saw Jan's photo, and I commented on it. I think it was a beautiful and sensitive moment, and I felt for Jan, and the other members, who knew Marek Nowak.
I think the image should be restored, as for me, the TOS are less important than the tribute. Many members took time to comment and view this image, and for me, it led me to Marek Nowak's fantastic gallery, where I learnt alot.
There are rules I understand, I work in legislation, but even in government, there are exceptions, and to me, simply removing an image beacuase it is a simply a candle is not right. The context is most important here, this image led members, such as myself who did not know Marek Nowak, to his gallery, this , as well as the tribute , played an important role in the validity of this site.
I always try to stick to the rules, and I can understand sometimes I may bend them to post here, but this case...well, in my opinion, what is more important? - The rules of TOS and "learning about the world" or the death of a man who gave so much time and effort to this site.
I ask the image be restored, simply out of respect for a human life, the feelings of those who knew him , and for the benfit of new members to be led to these great galleries.
This is to respect not only Marek, but all those members who gave vast amounts of their time and efforts here, who are assets to TE, who deserve, in a time like this, to be seen above some 'rules'.
Best wishes to all,
Justin

I fully agree with this.

"The only reason to keep the picture is that the photographer is a senior member and that the intention was a sensitive issue. Is it enough?"

Yes, sometimes the heart has to win. Laws are not made to be broken, but a good judge interprets. That is called wisdom. The removal of Jan's picture was a bad mistake.

I'm very sad.

Benny

Juzo 01-02-2011 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyV (Post 1162412)
I fully agree with this.

Yes, sometimes the heart has to win. Laws are not made to be broken, but a good judge interprets. That is called wisdom. The removal of Jan's picture was a bad mistake.

Benny

I think Benny sums this up. Wisdom is the key.
I respect the rules, but please, this is not just about rules, this is real life we are talking about, some sensitivity is required here.

Regards
Justin

Juzo 01-02-2011 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johannes68 (Post 1162304)
Dear All,

I have not seen this photo, so I can´t say whether it did or did not violate the TOS. The problem is that in a case like that this shouldn´t matter. It was thought as a moment of silence and memory for the dead TE-member. TOS or not TOS, a photo like this must not be deleted. Deleting it reveals a lack of respect, and for me a lack of education and culture. Deleting it leaves the ugly taste that the TOS are more important than the memories of a dead. It´s as simple - and as sad - as that.

Johannes

Also, I agree with Johannes' sentiments here. This is very very sad I am afraid, to be honest, I am amazed that this has to be debated, and with all due respect to the moderators, I am amazed that Jan's image was deleted.

Regards
Justin

mkamionka 01-02-2011 03:32 PM

example
 
Because the discussion is so intense let me give you an interesting example from Polish politics.

You have heard that on April 2010 there was a plane crash with Polish president and 96 other important people from my country on board.
Although the late president was not popular (25% popularity) and has no meaningful achievements many people were moved by this sudden death. Scouts spontaneously installed a wooden cross in front of the presidential palace in Warsaw. There were thousands of candles and flowers brought daily. People were visiting and praying. Yet after weeks the new president was elected. Most of people believed that somebody should clean the candles and flowers and the wooden cross which did not really fit the surrounding. Yet the opposition party with its leader being the twin brother of the deceased president (I am serious) said the cross is an important symbol and should stay there forever or alternatively be replaced with a monument erected in this very place. This has caused a lot of discussion because 1. the late president was below average and was already literally buried among Polish kings in Krakow, 2. this place in the middle of Warsaw old town did not seem appropriate to erect additional monument, as the cross was actually standing already in front of another monument.
Obviously it was a very sensitive issue.
A real war started. This place became a place of numerous happenings. Older people gathered there day and night to protect the cross. They were called in media "cross defenders". When a priest with police tried to move the cross, the crowd started to offend the priest and the officers calling them names. The cross stayed there for few more months. Finally without a warning the president's security managed to transfer the cross to the chapel which they say is a more appropriate place for it.
This secret transfer caused a wave of protests and accusations in particular by the twin brother of the late president. The opposition party focuses since exclusively on getting to the power as they say to well memorize the late president...

The story seems ridiculous yet it is very real.

For me the conclusion is:
of course it is a great intention to memorize a dear person, but there should be always a proper place and appropriate way to do that.

In the case of the late Polish president there will be several monuments but in more appropriate places. In the very square where the cross was set at the moment there is an elegant inscription on the palace wall memorizing the sad events. Surprisingly one of the cross defenders thrown a bottle with his excrement, to demonstrate that the marble inscription is not enough to memorize the president (!).

Do you see a similarity? I do.

npecanhuk 01-02-2011 06:30 PM

In the name of...
 
So, stop in the name of love... or go on in the name of war!

siamesa 01-02-2011 08:50 PM

stop
 
Hi friends

I make mine the words of our friend Neyvan. The year is just beginning. Please let's stop to hurt each other.
Pax et Bonum

BennyV 01-03-2011 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkamionka (Post 1162423)
Because the discussion is so intense let me give you an interesting example from Polish politics.
(...)
Do you see a similarity? I do.

So do I, but I also see the differences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkamionka (Post 1162423)
Although the late president was not popular (25% popularity) and has no meaningful achievements many people were moved by this sudden death.

I don't really follow Polish politics, but in this discussion were not talking about some of the very best on this site. For me - and I don't think I'm alone - it is the presence of those few really good photographers that make the site worthwhile. And I'm not just talking about their presence, but more importantly: they were active members with lots of USEFUL critiques and WS's to prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkamionka (Post 1162423)
Scouts spontaneously installed a wooden cross in front of the presidential palace in Warsaw.

We are not scouts and Jan's commemorative picture is not a wooden cross in front of the presidential palace. We are only talking about one simple picture among the many being uploaded daily. In no way was this "standing in front of another monument". Let's keep a sense of proportion here, shall we?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkamionka (Post 1162423)
Most of people believed that somebody should clean the candles and flowers and the wooden cross which did not really fit the surrounding.

Again, I don't know about Polish politics, but I tend to get very suspicious if someone claims to be speaking on behalf of "most people".

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkamionka (Post 1162423)
The story seems ridiculous yet it is very real.

Reality often is quite ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mkamionka (Post 1162423)
For me the conclusion is:
of course it is a great intention to memorize a dear person, but there should be always a proper place and appropriate way to do that.

That is not a conclusion, my friend, that is precisely what disagree about! Jan posted a commemorative picture. Some people think this was inappropriate (and they have the ToS and the moderators on their side), some people think that in this particular case the mods should have been a bit more lenient, a bit more humane and let it pass. That's all.

My conclusion?

This unfortunate affair has lead to again two of our very best photographers leaving the site (Jasmis and NinaL). This is particularly painful since many of the best photographers have left already.

If someone doesn't agree with a decision of the mods, he/she has every right to let them know. This is not "a war", there are no "names called", no "bottles with excrement" being thrown (oh, come on, please...), but this kind of feedback is very important for the ones who run this site. The site thrives on its members being happy. Simple as that.

And then for me personally it's either get back to the pictures or join Jasmis and Nina. I guess I'll stick around, but even though I supported the mods in most earlier cases, I really believe this particular decision was a mistake.

My suggestion?

It would have been wiser to have allowed this picture to stand, maybe for a limited time, e.g. with a personal message like one: "Dear Jan, you probably know your latest picture is not allowed within the ToS, but given the delicate subject matter and because it is such a nice gesture to one of our departed members, we will not remove it. On the other hand you know we have to stay true to our original aims of 'learning about the world through photography', so we would appreciate it if you would remove the picture after a suitable time. If you want, we can automatically remove the picture after a one month period. We thank you for your contribution and hope you understand our position. Kind regards. the mods"

Not that difficult, is it?

Or shall we agree to disagree?

I wish the mods and everyone involved in the site lots of courage and wisdom for 2011.

Benny

emka 01-03-2011 11:52 AM

"For me the conclusion is:
of course it is a great intention to memorize a dear person, but there should be always a proper place and appropriate way to do that.

In the case of the late Polish president there will be several monuments but in more appropriate places. In the very square where the cross was set at the moment there is an elegant inscription on the palace wall memorizing the sad events. Surprisingly one of the cross defenders thrown a bottle with his excrement, to demonstrate that the marble inscription is not enough to memorize the president (!).

Do you see a similarity? I do."

As a TE member and friend of Jan for many years, also old Polish woman and inhabitant of Warsaw where the Presidential Palast stands, I can say that I know both situations very well from my own experience. And the comparison of them is totally inappropriate.





I see often fun in serious situations. So , let's see how this comparison works. I can't help, I will write it.

There is one dead person in both cases so Marek is in the role of late president (haha)
Jan is in the role of his twin brother Jaroslaw (hahaha)
mods and Mariusz in the role of authority it means our present President Mr. Komorowski
and me - the cross defender (it is the best :)!)
Emka

Buin 01-03-2011 03:34 PM

A candle and a remembrance ...
 
This occurrence, the "capitulation" of Jan, is another proof for the arrogant, merciless, insensitive and small-minded absolutistic ruling of the moderators here on TE. The downfall of this site in this way is inevitable and it nearly seems to be intended. I have no other explanation for this behaviour. One clearly can see that the forum "Clearing the air ..." was nothing else than a smoke grenade in order to lull the TE members.

What else must happen in order to make the moderators reflecting on their incredible behaviour. It isn't watching the compliance with the TE rules, it is pure absolutism - with blinders. It's a real shame that Jan who really rendered outstaning services to TE is treated in such a way.

It's the time for an apology instead of entranching behind "rules" ...

kajenn 01-04-2011 12:24 AM

I beg to differ...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Buin (Post 1162553)
[...] another proof for the arrogant, merciless, insensitive and small-minded absolutistic ruling of the moderators here on TE [...]

Ah, come on guys, keep it within reasonable limits...

Docarmo 01-04-2011 05:15 AM

Brazilian way
 
Here is a link to see the image that was deactivated - not deleted. I caught the number provided by Jan (Jasmis) and reconstructed the link.
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/photo1265643.htm

I am not a moderator, nor administrator. I am a simple member.
I don’t know Jasmis, nor Marek.
So, what I write here is not out of friendship to anyone, not for anyone who I miss. Not to please "Greeks and Trojans", neither.

Jan, everything is a matter of presentation.

I saw the picture and read the note. The way it was done, in my opinion, is really out of the principles of the TOS... Please, Jan, continue to read, do not stop here.

I don’t know if it's due to some participations here in the forum, I started receiving emails asking my opinion about the case. Therefore, I'm intruding here.

What I think? In Brazil, we say this: Para tudo, dá-se um jeito (For everything, there is a way).
Let us, then, try the Brazilian “way" (jeitinho brasileiro).
According to TOS, if we write an appropriate note, an image can become acceptable.
According to what moderators have said repeatedly, an image can be reactivated if the member concerned sends an appeal and an explanation.

Well, here's my suggestion...

I assume that TE has become a kind of "country", a "nation" - has become an entity from which we have a "nationality", an "ethnic".
TE membership comprises having duties and rights - properly set in the TOS.
Losing a member of TE, due to migration, abandonment, death... generates consequences. In the case of Marek, his death generated much pain, as I see the reactions.
Then, a picture on genre PEOPLE, showing a silhouette of someone who looks sad, deep in a room, with a candle in a kind of ritual... This photo shows the behaviour of a people - the people of TE. Which category? Daily life?

Once, I sent a response to one of my removed photos, asking to return it, with necessary modifications. And I got permission.

Jan, I'll write a note for your photo, I hope you do not mind.
Who knows, with what I will write, you may request a reassessment of the case?

Suggestion of a NOTE:
"TE has some people and these people have a history that has already been built over some years. Like every people, we have our traditions and our memories.
Some are gone. Like every people, we have our rituals, our celebrations.
Today, I let my note of sadness – not only mine but of many TE’s people – because of the death of Marek, two years ago.
Contritely, reduced to a shadow, a silhouette in the background of a picture, I bring my humble, earnest tribute. With the hope that life does not end with death in the Earth. Let this candle symbolizes that hope."


Du


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